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Talk:Star Trek: The Original Series/archive
As many of you know by now, starting September 16th, TOS will air in syndication with redone vfx. These will include new exterior shots and battle scenes, planetary backgrounds, and repairs of small goofs. It is likely that this will present minor, yet noticable changes to continuity. I suggest we create a policy to deal with this situation before the episodes begin to air. -- Jaz talk 22:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC) :Just a question, to me it seems like the place to ask but, Where will these air? I thought I heard it being released on DVD, not airing. - ::Reportedly on CBS on Saturday nights. -- Sulfur 00:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC) :::Is MA's policy is dependent on whether Paramount views them as canon? I'd say that is a factor, but, then, MA includes TAS. In the remixes' favor, the Okudas are involved. Are the Originals or the remasters more likely to be referred to in future productions? I'd guess the new stuff will become authoritative. -- StAkAr Karnak 00:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC) As a side note, I think MA will greatly benifit from this. This is a great opportunity to make visual observation of ships, especially ones that previously appeared only as a speck of light or reused set prop. -- Jaz talk 02:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Read the article on the official site. The series will be syndicated, just like TNG and DS9. You'll need to check your local listings to see when it will air. --Julianbaischir 02:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC) :::::(Proposal by Dracorat moved to bottom) :::::What do you think? -- Dracorat 02:44, 2 September 2006 (UTC) :Should be ok, All they are changing is specia; effects, for images and effects shots simply have one thats says something like "196# Version", and "200#" Version--Terran Officer 20:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::I don't really see this whole thing as as big of an issue as everyone else apparently thinks with regards to canon-- Paramount is endorsing it anyway, so yeah. The dialog will remain the same, and unless I am missing something, most likely the effects will remain the same, just simply upgraded with the times-- that shouldn't affect canon. At best I see this as an extraordinary opportunity to expand the background section of TOS-- and affected pages -- with side-by-side effects shots to show the upgrades, etc. --Alan del Beccio 20:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::Also, since no one has posted it yet, here is the article from Startrek.com. --Alan del Beccio 20:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC) :::::::Indeed, I don't see many "major" changes being done -- Earth will have some clouds for once, the "photon-torpedo-phasers" from "Balance of Terror" will become phasers, and the "NCC-1017" will probably be given a more likely reg number. Tis not the end of the world, as we know it. Half the things we wrote off and mentioned in the background anyway :p Sep. 16? wow, that's closer than I'd've expected. - AJ Halliwell 20:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC) :::I'm very surprised that it was kept under wraps for so long without a leak. Pleasant surprise, something to look forward to, and best news I've heard in a while. I wonder if TAS or TNG will ever get the Remastered treatment? -- StAkAr Karnak 00:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::::My understanding is that this is only in the beginning stages, and it will be a couple of years before they are done with the project, which is being scheduled for release on HDVD or Blu-Ray, NOT syndication.Capt Christopher Donovan 02:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC) :::::::::Actually, according to the article on Startrek.com (Link above by Alan), it states it'll be in syndication with a date for HDVD, etc. unknown presently. The syndication order will not be the same as we are familiar with with TOS. - Enzo Aquarius 02:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::::So they've been at this awhile and never told us...hmmm... ::::::::Anyways, this might be a good place to start the Great Debate...will we be wholesale replacing images taken from the old TOS shows with their "upgraded" replacement images?Capt Christopher Donovan 04:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::I talked about it with Jörg and others on IRC the other day, and would have brought up the same discussion. Actually, I think there are two things we have to clarify: "Do we accept the new stuff at all?" and "How do we handle possible new contradictions?" ::::::::::Regarding the first, I think we'll even have to - just like we accept the ST:TMP Special Edition with new effects and all, we should accept this new edition of TOS. Both are official products done by the franchise owner itself. However, this shouldn't mean we have to replace all stuff that is not "enhanced". Just like we accept both TOS and TAS screenshots of Kirk as "correct", we should do the same in the case of "model" vs. "CGI" Enterprise. It might be best to have at least one of each for the most prominent starships and other visuals. Regarding the proposed footnote - again, we don't "consider things canon". Something either is or isn't, and we're not the ones to decide, just the ones to archive what is there. I don't like the idea of trying to define something like "second class canon", and restrict the new stuff to background sections, which is what that proposal basically does. ::::::::::Regarding possible contradictions, we already have the guideline of presenting both/all possible versions while making note of the contradiction - the same should probably apply here. -- Cid Highwind 17:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC) :::Cid brings up a good point - there is historical precedent for remixed Trek - Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Significantly, we have a separate page for Star Trek: The Motion Picture (The Director's Edition), and the DE is the version currently accepted as canon. Creator's intent may play some role, as TMPDE was Robert Wise's original vision for the film. Does nuTOS merit a separate page for each episode? -- StAkAr Karnak 18:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::Of course, that is for the DVD release. Not for just the movie itself. -- Sulfur 18:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::::::Correct. The story itself stays the same, so we shouldn't have two different episode articles - we don't have different articles for the already existing episode versions (uncut vs. cut), either. -- Cid Highwind 20:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC) :::I don't like the idea of releagating the new footage to some "second class canon" status. Whether we like it or not, it will be the DEFINITIVE footage from this point onward. How well we take that is in large part, I think, dependant on what they eventually DO to the footage. Reports range from simple scene recreation "as is" but in modern quality, to major changes to ships and fx. The "beauty image" of the new 1701 looks pretty good to me, no major changes evident...Capt Christopher Donovan 20:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC) :::: Well, it is entire possible this is all overkill too. I could easily see people just making notes inline in the article if something is different. ::::: -- Dracorat 20:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::Well, I'm not advocating any position at this point; just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks. Makes for stimulating conversation. -- StAkAr Karnak 22:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC) We should really wait untill we see what it is, they said an update of the scenes, not new scenes, so it's possible that we see the same ones, just in CG, in that case, I still recomend a picture for the "196#" version, with another one for the "200#" version. Seems pretty simple for me.--Terran Officer 08:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC) :Hmm, I was reading an article at TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/news/020906_01.shtml in regards to nuTrek. It looks like they'll be adding 'CGI crewmembers' to ships and starbases. Looks like we may have new people to add to such articles like Unnamed USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) personnel. - Enzo Aquarius 14:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC) ::This is meant as no way disrespect, but I have seen so many versions on what is and isn't going to be added and changed that I don't know what to believe anymore. I think it was a nice idea to try to figure it all out beforehand, but we are all truthfully in the dark here. We are just going to have to wait until next week. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:45, 9 September 2006 (UTC) :::Having seen the "making of" videos at StarTrek.com, it's pretty clear that 95%+ of the material is going to be unchanged. Every CG shot that has been shown so far is a direct recreation of the original shot, just in better detail and quality. The editing won't allow them to insert entirely NEW sequences, and the shots they replace have to be the same length as the originals. The only things that are apparently schedules to go "out the window" entirely are the "blobs of light" alien ships. The other scenes will be essentially as originally shown, or with minor tweaks.Capt Christopher Donovan 10:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Proposal by Dracorat (See above discussion) Article text Bottom of Article Text Wish list? Since nuTOS is still in production and they are likely to use MA as a resource, what would you like to see changed? One thing that I've never cared for was the design of the Doomsday Machine. I recall reading that the original design was much different, but not practical to build. Since it was never referenced again, a different design wouldn't violate canon. I'd like Yarnek to keep the same design, but maybe to move around more and have others of his race visible. In "Arena", maybe the Gorn can retract his faceted eye like a membrane, making his physiology agree with Slar's. Would be nice to see a Gorn ship too. Curiously, the press reports have said that only 79 episodes of TOS will be redone. I hope they don't skip "The Cage". -- StAkAr Karnak 22:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC) Replacing Images with new VfX :copied from the other thread created for possible further comment... I'm going to grab the bull by the horns on this issue (and maybe set off a firestorm) by suggesting we start getting our resources together now so that as the "new" versions come out each week, someone with the ability to do so can start getting us good screengrabs to replace our old ones. I've seen some of the remastered live-action footage, and it looks like it was shot yesterday! The new FX sequences are 95%+ straight replacements for the old footage (same motions, camera angle, length, etc). They've said they'll be changing a few things, like the "blob's o'light alien ships" (to be replaced with new design models) and replacing a few of the "stock shots" with slightly different footage. None of it should in any way cause any "canon concerns", as it is being very carefully crafted to be as true to the original as possible. I'm sure we all want our wikipedia to look the best it can, and the remastered TOS footage is the best way to make sure it does, in my opinion...Capt Christopher Donovan 11:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC) :I still don't think that replacing is the right way. I think that having both available is the best option. That will allow people to see what's changed, even if those changes are only very minimal. -- Sulfur 12:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC) ::First, I don't really know how this is any different than what we already discussed above - however, I saw some "preview" footage since then. ::Regarding "re-mastered" scenes that are otherwise unchanged, I don't see why we should keep the old ones - if the new version has a better image quality then we can simply upload new images of that. However, I really don't think it is necessary to go wild and make it a project to change any and all images from a specific episode immediately after it has aired. ::Regarding new CGI scenes that basically "recreate" old effect scenes, we shouldn't necessarily replace all or keep all. The comparison to the right, for example, shows that Miri's planet looks different now, and we shouldn't ignore one representation for another. ::Regarding everything that is completely "new"... this issue is still open, and should probably be dealt with if such a scene ever appears. -- Cid Highwind 13:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC) IMO, doing the "before and after" bit just eats up memory in the server to no good effect. The picture posted above to me PROVES that we need to be getting the new images in the articles just as fast as we can. The new image on the right is clearly superior in quality, and would make for a better presentation of any article it was in. The old caps are going to make the articles look "shabby", (again IMO)...Capt Christopher Donovan 06:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::Your opinion has been noted - however, as you can see, it's not the only one, so complete and immediate removal of all TOS screencaps is not going to happen. As far as differences of whatever type exist, I even think we have to have images of both (where important, not on every page that includes such an image) if we want to be "as accurate as possible". -- Cid Highwind 08:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::Besides "memory on the server" is not a problem anymore, as I'm told and I think it would also be good to have comparison images so users, who are critical of the new effects, can see how closely camera angles were matched and how truthfully to the original the new effects have been integrated. I can get the exact frame of a given shot from a given episode (like I did with the image above) so we will have the direct, clickable comparison pic. I think by keeping the old (admittedly rather low quality effects) and adding the new ones MA will not lose quality but gain some, as Cid stated, to be "as accurate as possible", please everyone and be just complete. My two cents. --Jörg 08:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC) For the record, I wasn't advocating the IMMEDIATE deletion of all "old" caps. I just wanted to get this whole "new cap vs old cap, which cap" debate out of the way so when the "new" eps DO start airing we can hit the ground running in terms of getting image caps that we want to do. If storage space is not an issue, then I guess we COULD keep the old caps in storage for comparison purposes. However, within the context of the articles, I think we should feature the new caps, and the old caps could be accessed through a link on each image's individual Image Archive page.Capt Christopher Donovan 09:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::It is only a debate because you made it one. I agree with Cid and Jorg. The simpliest and easiest way to go about this is to have to separate images, placed side by side, as shown up above that presents the before and after VFX. Either way both should be presented in the main part of the article. Doing such will not affect the quality of the article, nor will it affect that accuracy. As I stated way way up above, everyone seems to be making a mountain out of this molehill. --Alan del Beccio 13:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::::Er, yeah, what they all said. :) --From Andoria with Love 16:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::I disagree that images should be composited together sideways, like the image above. By either having both versions of the image available displayed together horizontally or compositing them together horizontally, it will make each image easier to see as the image size is calculated vertically. By doing either option, the image will not increase vertically and the image size will stay the same. --Defiant 16:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::I think combining the images was never the plan, that was just for this one example collage. As soon as the new TOS has aired (still more than a day) images of the new scenes and corresponding images of previous TOS should be uploaded (or matching shots from new TOS of images we already have here), not combined into one image and put side by side on the relevant pages, like, on Miri's planet, for example. --Jörg 16:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::::::I may enter the discussion late, but I already stated my pov somewhere else: "It would be cool if the re-mastered image of the ship could be used, but it is not re-mastered, it is re-created and as such should count as an addional model. The original imagery and model is still and should remain valid as our source of information." As to the placement of images. Well, since I think there should be no replacements the images should be uploaded seperately and then inserted the usual way into an article, that is one by one in vertical alignment, not next to each other. -- Kobi 16:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::::Wow, I have to indent really far now. Popping in ever so more late, I have to agree with what has been said. When it is a re-mastered scene, one where the only change is that it has been made HD, but no CGI model or anything, I don't see the problem with simply replacing our images. With the CGI stuff, or anything that looks different (I know not all of the CGI stuff will, but I am grouping them in the same place), I would like to see both images put up. I don't think they should be made into a collage, though. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC) :::::::::I agree with keeping the old and the new for comparison; and keeping them separate (not collageing.) Going around replacing the old with the new doesn't make much sense. We should also consider there are people who won't like the new version, and prefer the old one, and should still archive it.... - AJ Halliwell 16:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::Oops, sorry Jorg, I somehow thought the above image was two individual images side-by-side, not two pasted together. Apply that thought to my above comment. --Alan del Beccio 16:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::::::I'm starting to think we should create a page for the project and list whatever is digitally replaced, such as the Enterprise, in the order they appear in the episodes. --Defiant 18:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC) ::Jörg is correct, image compositions were never really suggested here for general use in articles, except for the one that was specifically created to show the change between old and new in one image. -- Cid Highwind 21:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC) While I'm not in agreement with the general consensus (I still favor straight replacement of images), I'm glad to see the debate I knew had to be take place. This way we have a set policy that everyone knows about and can follow. Ultimately, that is a plus for ALL of us, since we're not having to make it up "on the fly" with a lot of "edit wars" and such.Capt Christopher Donovan 07:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC) A page to list changed visual effects Now, about that page I suggested, listing new visual effects. Do others think it's a good idea or is it just me? Also, what about a name for the page? --Defiant 15:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC) :Since we don't even know yet what visual effects, if any, really are "new" (I suppose you're not talking about simply "redone" effect shots here), we could wait until such an effect appears. However, what could be done in the meantime is to split the section about "Re-mastered Trek" now residing on TOS to its own article. This article could then be the place to also list effect changes as they occur, until there are enough to warrant an own article. -- Cid Highwind 16:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC) ::'Oppose -' As indicated in the comparison images above, having watched "Miri" and "Balance of Terror", new effects are very few. It appears that even original star positions/movements are the same, with CG ships & planets (complete with retro-grain) composited in with identical movement. (The most striking change to me was a change in the "whoosh" the Enterprise makes in the opening credits; the closing credits are unchanged and do not include any mention of remastery work.) ::I'd suggest that any notable changes, such as Icarus IV, can be noted in the background sections of related articles. They'd be more useful discussed alongside related text than segregated to a Remastered article. On a similar note, I'd also suggest that a separate article for Remastered Trek is unnecessary. What was done is akin to when TOS was cleaned up for the Sc-Fi channel airing; it's just another layer to the show and not a separate work. A paragraph in the TOS article would suffice. -- StAkAr Karnak 18:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC) :::Related... a comparison of BOT has been posted here for those that haven't yet seen it and want to see what people are talking about. -- Sulfur 04:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC) "Red Planet" in the opening sequence remastered as "mars" As most of you might have already noticed, the "Red Planet" Enterprise flies by in the opening sequence now features "Valles Marineris", one of the most prominent features on the martian surface and the deepest and longest canyon in the Sol system. In regard of this unmistakeable feature of Mars, does MA consider it canon to call that planet Mars? --BlueMars 13:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC) :I'm not sure if we have a clear consensus to use anything from opening sequences as valid resources in in-universe articles. Even disregarding this, where would you put that information so that its "canonicity" really matters? -- Cid Highwind :I thought of adding it to the Mars-article, as this would be the best shot we have of the planet showing almost its entire disc. --BlueMars 14:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)